'Religious Schools Should be Banned!'

Hi,

Because Christians may disagree doesn't mean that there is a right and a wrong answer. In the same way that I appreciate that there is going to be differences on a whole host of theoligical issues

1. There are going to be some essential issues -which some people who call themselves Christian will disagree but actually disagreeing with them will show that they are not Christians
2. There are going to be some important issues that some Christians will disagree on but they will actually be wrong and it will be harmful for the wrong view to be taught
3. There are going to be some issues that we disagree on that are not as central and where there isn't clear guidance. We will then be clear that there are differing views

Now I would say that God is Sovereign over time and space is so fundamental to our understanding of Christianity that it is up there in the essential box! It's what the Bible teaches.

How that sovereignty happens in practise is important as we see God's character but Christians will not always get it right! How involved is God or more precisely -how is God involved?

The details of what happened in history -well we wont agree on every minute detail -in the same way that my intepretation of events in my life might differ from yours so I'm not claiming some sort of infallability here.

I note that I have given some very specific examples of God's involvement in history and as yet noone has come back and said "No, God wasn't involved in those things! They were all random chance events, the product of social and economic conditions."

I'm going to risk an assumption that your problem will be with when bad things happen such as the holocaust, the crusades etc? You will see from my previous post that I don't suggest a simplistic God did it, it was great attitude to those events. Rather we are going to have to look hard at them and we may not reach agreement but I will want young people at the right age and with the right understanding to seriously question those things and get to grips with them in the light of what they have learnt about God and history. You see we leave them growing up with a humanistic attitude to history, it is all chance, it is all material conditions and then whop bang they get hit by the holocaust and they have nothing firm to handle it with. Or they get hit by a personal crisis and they are all at sea because God is not in control or they panic when Iran becomes more Islamic. Rather they should have the right framework for responding to those events. So the response to personal or international crisis today is "I don't know how this will work out but I know that God is sovereign and I've seen how he has accomplished his purposes in the past so I trust him for the future."

Thanks for giving me a more specific idea of what you meant by Christian education, as regards history lessons (and I know that you're promoting the idea of 'Christian education', not faith schools).

The main objection I have is that this kind of Christian education assumes and promotes the idea that all Christians believe the same things, which they don't. Christians have differing ideas as to how involved God is throughout history, and which events God approves of and which she doesn't.

Hi

1. It would help for you to disassociate me from the Christian schools lobby. That's not my torch!

2. Which bits of history was God involved in....easy all of them! And it isn't actually that hard to see it either. I mentioned some examples, the massive growth of the church in China, the possibility for Christian missionaries to go round the world because of Rome, then Britain, then America. It's a Biblical notion that God raises up and destroys Empires -see Daniel. The point is, we either believe that God is sovereign over the Universe he made and that he sustains it, or we don't. We either believe that Christ will return or we don't!

3. It's harder than we realise. I'm not sat here with rose tinted glasses. We are going to have to wrestle with issues such as -why were so many Christians persecuted in China and Russia and close off those countries to outside support? Why did God allow Constantine's Christianity to become distorted and misleading. What role does the holocaust play in all this? Why is God allowing so much cruelty to go on in western society today to unborn children, to the environment, to the elderly, to other races. We will have to wrestle with those issues. But see the transforming light of a Christian approach here that says these things aren't all meaningless and whilst I can't answer everyone of them I do trust God to bring good out of current difficulties as he has in the past.

Hi

Well we would agree that thoughts shouldn't be rammed into childrens heads. I've always believed in treating children as the very intelligent unique and wonderful acts of God's creation that they are.

God's thoughts. There is a sense that as far as truth goes all we can do is think God's thoughts after him. We are dependent upon him.

What can we teach people (not only children) about God's thoughts. Well we can teach them what he has revealed to us in the Bible. That's not about exhaustive knowledge about God and everything -but it is about sufficient knowledge

What about history? Well we can say that God is sovereign over history. That doesn't mean we can guess at every stage what is happening. But 1. We know that God is working his purposes out. 2. We know that history is purposeful in the hands of God and not accidental chance 3. We know that history is linear and not cyclical it is moving momentously onwards towards the day of his appearing and the renewal of all things. This should make history exciting. We can then start to trace back some clues. See how God worked in the Roman empire to spread the gospel. Think about Henry VIII -was his choice of wives simply about a selfish/political man or can you see the amazing results of those political choices as they furthered the reformation in England -Britain and America's political rise and the way that enabled mission as God used Wesley, and Edwards to bring revival and then from there Hudson Taylor, Carey... even now the effect of the English language means that Christians are used as English teachers in China (who'd have thought it?) And now we are seeing the rise of Eastern nations such as China and korea's economic power and guess what -God has been not only bring people to Christ there but giving them a passion for world mission!

Evolution -well I prefer to say Creation because that's how God reveals it -whether we go young or old earth. Genesis is definately clear on one thing God is intimately and actively involved in creation and in sustaining the universe.

Actually I'm not that much interested in independence of thought I'm interested in as many people as possible having their thoughts conformed to God's thoughts!

And this is where we differ. I don't think it's as easy to know God's thoughts as you are making out. As I said before, one reason why I would be very wary to have God constantly referred to in history lessons (for example) is because I don't think it's possible to know what part God played in historical events. Similarly, I don't think it's possible to know how involved God was in the evolutionary process, or in the formation of the continents.

I am somewhat irked when people claim to have intimate knowledge of God's thoughts. I also don't like the idea of children's thoughts conforming to God's (alleged) thoughts simply because those thoughts have been rammed into children's heads constantly, instead of being developed by the children themselves.

Sorry the point about fictional children wasn't intended as finger pointing I've realised that my thinking tends to be the same!

Hi

Firstly -I'm not arguing for some crass curriculum that tries to turn every lesson into an evangelistic sermon -in the same way that beleiving the whole Bible is about Christ doesn't turn every Old Testament into a forced allegory.

Rather I'm saying a Christian education will have that ethos. Yes children should come to faith for themselves. But we need to unashamedly teach them God's truth! And that means that our attitude to all things should show that God is glorified.

Secondly -remember that I'm not arguing for Christian schools -that's someone else! I'm arguing for Christian education and that may in practise take various shapes -for example as a bear minimum we should be discussing our children's education with them (and I mean us in the wider church community context, those of us who have no children are too easily slipping into the "my fictional children" excuse and putting off the issue -our involvement with the children in our church communities should follow this pattern.

Having said that -why shouldn't God be brought up in every lesson? He is after all sovereign! Actually I'm not that much interested in independence of thought I'm interested in as many people as possible having their thoughts conformed to God's thoughts! The issue isn't that God shouldn't be brought up its about not forcing him to be tagged onto it in an unconvincing way(Sorry I'm thinking as I write.

Incorporating a God element would probably make maths lessons more interesting...I just wonder how it would work in a practical sense; whether something about God would be said in every single lesson, or just occasionally. I'm prepared to admit that I don't incorporate God enough into my daily life...but I'm not sure I agree that God should be brought up in *every* *single* *lesson*. It's important for children to make up their own minds about God and religion, and I don't think a Christian school that relates every aspect of learning to God would be conducive to independence of thought, faithwise.

The issue there isn't so much that Christ is not an example. He is but he is more than that and the risk then is that children get only the moral view of religion you mentioned. Christ becomes an impossible standard to live up to like the law. I would rather teach them Christ the Saviour before Christ the example.

Good question -I have to admit I'd struggle with that one because I had a very unpleasant experience of it ! So calling all maths lovers. I do however beleive it is possible

Some thoughts

1. Our understanding of how things are ordered and structured -God is in control, he is knowable by rational beings.
2. Maths as a basis for design -everything in the Universe is based in some way on mathematical models, ratios, angles... that leads to beauty. Good art and music is based on good maths -its a building block -does that help?

So maybe next time I'm doing a sunday school class I should ask the ids what they learnt in maths this week

Personally if an RE teacher told my (non-existent) children that Christ was a good example I'd be pleased. I think that believing that Christ is a good example and thus wanting to follow that example IS pretty life-transforming.

But I agree that the religious element in schools can be damaging. I don't think anyone in my RE class at school took the lessons seriously. All the teacher ever seemed to talk about was sex and what a terrible sin it is to have it outside marriage, and promoted sexist stereotypes such as 'women prefer to stay in the home rather than go out to work.'

How would you go about showing children 'the beauty of God in symmetry' in a maths lesson? Really, I am curious!

There are many different types of 'Christian education' and 'non Christian education'. I am a Christian, and the things you mentioned as hallmarks of a 'Christian education' (e.g. history being taught as the 'unfolding of God's providence') aren't things that I'm particularly anxious for my (non-existent) children to learn, not least because they are hugely problematic. I wouldn't want my children to be taught that certain historical events came about because of the will of the God -- how can anyone definitively state which events were directed by God and which weren't?

If I had children, I'd like them to go to a school that had a caring, encouraging, friendly ethos, that strongly promoted respect towards others and oneself, that had children of different backgrounds, that encouraged independence of thought and creativity, that pushed children to do their best both academically and in other areas of life, while acknowledging that people are good at different things. As long as a school had these aspects, I wouldn't be particularly bothered whether it was a Christian school or not.

In some respects the religious element in schools can be more damaging than the people who want to rubbish religion. At least when your child comes home from school and says "My teacher says evolution shows that Christians are all misguided nutters" you can sit them down and depending on your preference discuss the points made above or if you'd rather show them an Answers in Genesis video!

But what about when your RE teacher tells the children that the story of the good samaritan tells us that we should be nice to other people or that Christ was a good example or that Baptism represents a fresh start in a way that implies it is a second chance to do your best. Anything bluntly that starts to innoculate them against the real radical life transforming gospel.

What about when they are taught history in half a dozen alternative ways that say to them that things simply happened by chance or by human effort or by social or natural causes and they don't get to see the power of a sovereign God bringing things to pass.

What about when maths is simply maths -numbers and stuff and the children never get to see the beauty of God in symmetry?

Let's raise our eyes above simply protecting our children from nasty aethiests and start considering what real Christian Education would mean!

Well it isn't actually the first time I've heard of fiercely anti-religious teachers, but I suppose it's not as uncommon as my own experience led me to assume. I would have thought most teachers would feel compelled not be brazenly one-sided about this kind of thing. Apparently not...

Another thing I've just remembered is a few school assemblies where a Christian visitor talked about religion and, on one occasion, gave everyone free bibles.

That was all at my secondary school. At my primary school (also mainstream state) we sang religious hymns in assemblies and the younger children had to say grace before eating lunch (although nobody had to do any of this if their parents said they didn't have to). I'm 24 so this wasn't all that long ago.

So I suppose experiences vary greatly even within our centralised state education system.

My primary school teacher suggested that churches were useless institutions, that had a negative overall effect on society, when I pointed out the good work churches do with the elderly, young mums, counselling, the poor (through credit unions etc.), and all the other things my church was involved in she said that I didn't have to defend church because my dad's a minister (sometimes I think atheist fundies must have had their brains removed and replaced with sawdust).

My physics teach took us all through the bible pointed out that Christians believe the world came into existence 4000 years ago and then showed how science (astronomy) disproves religion and how he reckons all Christians are hicks- needless to say he didn't have the first clue about scripture or hermeneutics. So when I asked him who wrote Genesis and whether he felt the first twelve chapters were intended to be read literally, whether they mirrored any other ancient literature, and whether he felt they were written for the purpose of working out the date of the earth needless to say he struck a blank.

Maybe, I have been unfortunate with my teachers but it is certainly true that there are some very aggressive atheists about (who can be worse than some Christian 'fundamentalists'- a title I have never heard a Christian own out of choice). Also, why is it that whenever people criticise evangelical Christianity they always start on about some weird cult in the Bible belt of the USA rather than their local church (which is arguably far more 'evangelical' than your insular conservative literalist congregation in somewhere like Tulsa Oklahoma)?

I went to a 'mainstream' comprehensive school and I didn't find that to be the case at all. I remember being actively encouraged to debate those very points during "Religion Education" and "Personal and Social Education" classes. Also, when being taught the theory of evolution we were specifically told by our biology teacher that it in no way disproved the existence of God, something which has stuck with me ever since.

I think faith schools are a bad idea. Children should be in an environment where they can mix with other children raised in a different faith, or none. Church is the community for Christians, not school. Another problem with faith schools is that they can promote views which are anti-science: the folly of young-earth creationism readily springs to mind. We do not want pupils coming out of schools whose ideas are on a par with flat-earthism.

Jon
www.antichurch.org.uk

The issue at heart for a Christian is not first and foremost what type of school their children should go to but what type of education they should have. In that respect the choice is either a Christian education or a non christian education. Do we see knowledge and learning being towards the glory of God? Does science point to the wonders of the creator (and I'm not referring to young earth/intellgient design versus evolution issues here). Is History the unfolding of God's providence? Christians will want to say yes to these things. How they will then ensure that their children are educated effectively will come next -a lot will depend upon the communities they are in, their own lifestyles and demands etc. That might range from home schooling through Christian schools through to ensuring that what their children learn at school is discussed at home and thought through from a Christian perspective. It also means that pastors and youth leaders will ensure that sunday school isn't simply where we learn that it is bad to swear and fight in the playground but will engage with the children to help them learn from a God centred perspective and will engage with issues such as literature, sex education, science, medicine, ethics and philosophy -all the topics that the Bible seems to want to chat about

I believe your suspicion to be ill-founded, flybaby. I went to a 'mainstream' (what a tendentious adjective!) school and we were actively discouraged from sharing our views and understandings about life and faith on the grounds of 'inclusiveness'. Surely all schools are religious schools; those without an explicit label belonging to the materialist religion - one of the most narrow and intolerant of all.

I certainly agree that faith schools shouldn't be banned, but I do think that given the choice, I would prefer for my (fictional) children to attend a mainstream school.

This is not because of any particular moral objection to faith schools, but simply because I suspect that a mainstream school would give much greater opportunity for children to come into contact with a wider range of views and understandings about life and faith. It would give them the chance to meet people from a wider range of backgrounds.

There are many misunderstandings of faith schools. The main one that such schools will only except children of that faith.

This is not always the truth. My two children went to a Church of England School, but about 30% of the pupils were from other faiths, mainly Muslim.

Many Muslim parents preferred for their children to go to this Christain school, with a clear faith ethos, than to a secular school.